I find these types of theories to be harmful. Once you take Torah out of the realm of reality, don't be surprised if people who live in reality are not interested in it. I actually find this uncharacteristic of you, because I see you as an otherwise well-grounded, practical person.
"The problem is real because we can’t simply say this gemara is being hyperbolic. This is exactly what the heretic is claiming, and the chachomim insist that the numbers are literally true!"
Chas v'shalom. Not at all. With all due respect, this is exactly what the Rambam means when he refers to when he says
הראשונה והוא רוב מה שראיתי, ואשר ראיתי חיבוריו ומה ששמעתי עליו -
הם מאמינים אותם על פשטם, ואין סוברין בהם פירוש נסתר בשום פנים. והנמנעות כולם הם אצלם מחויבות המציאות.
ואמנם עושים כן, לפי שלא הבינו החוכמה והם רחוקים מן התבונות, ואין בהם מן השלמות כדי שיתעוררו מאליהם, ולא מצאו מעורר שיעורר אותם. סוברין שלא כוונו החכמים ז"ל בכל דבריהם הישרים והמתוקנים, אלא מה שהבינו לפי דעתם מהם, ושהם על פשטם. ואע"פ שהנראה מקצת דבריהם יש בהם מן הדיבה והריחוק מן השכל, עד שאילו סופר על פשוטו לעמי הארץ - כל שכן לחכמים - היו תמהים בהתבוננתם בהם, והם אומרים היאך יתכן שיהיה בעולם אדם שיחשוב בזה או שיאמין שהיא אמונה נכונה, ק"ו שייטיב בעיניו.
וזו הכת עניי הדעת, יש להצטער עליהם לסכלותם, לפי שהם מכבדין ומנשאין החכמים כפי דעתם, והם משפילים אותם בתכלית השפלות, והם אינם מבינין זה. וחי השם יתברך כי הכת הזה מאבדים הדרת התורה ומאפילים זהרה, ומשימים תורת ה' בהיפך המכוון בה. לפי שהשם יתברך אמר בתורה התמימה "אשר ישמעון את כל החוקים האלה ואמרו רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה", והכת הזאת מספרים משפטי דברי החכמים ז"ל מה שכששומעים אותו שאר האומות, אומרים "רק עם סכל ונבל הגוי הקטן הזה".
ורוב מה שעושים זה הדרשנים שהם מפרשים ומודיעים להמון העם מה שאינם יודעים. ומי יתן אחר שלא ידעו ולא הבינו שיהיו שותקים. כמו שאמר "מי יתן החרש תחרישון ותהי להם לחכמה". או שיהיו אומרים אין אנו מבינים כוונת החכמים בזה המאמר ולא היאך יתפרש. אבל הם מחשבים שהם מבינים אותו ומשתדלים להודיעו לפרש לעם מה שהבינו הם עצמם, כפי דעתם החלושה, לא מה שאמרו חכמים, ודורשים בראשי העם דרשות ממסכת ברכות ופרק חלק וזולתם על פשטם מלה במלה.
1) Its one thing to criticize an approach that takes you out of reality as we know it just to answer a problem. It is ad hoc and forced and doesn't seem authentic. But I don't think the Maharal or the Akeidas Yitzchak can be accused of coming up with an ad hoc solution. I think they genuinely felt this approach to nature-breaking miracles is firmly grounded in the sources and in the very perplexing qualities of the miracles described in Tanach and Chazal. Its organic.
2) I had a feeling someone would cite the Rambam in Chelek to counter this approach.
All I can say is that the Maharal is ordinarily right there with the Rambam allegorizing most of the fantastical midrashim and aggados-Like Og's height and throwing the mountain on Klal Yisroel for instance.
But this one about EY expanding simply cannot be one of those. The text itself prevents us from doing it-- forcing the Maharal to resort to alternative realities.
1) I don't disagree with the organic aspect, but I highly, highly doubt the Maharal meant the sci-fi way you are presenting it here. Maybe you could say this is a modern twist on the Maharal.
In any case though, my issue wasn't with the ad hoc or forced aspect, I don't really have a problem with those when the situation calls for it. To the contrary, there is nothing really forcing us to make Torah otherworldly in the scif-fi way you are presenting it. Of course, it's totally conventional and intuitive to believe in an entire sprititual aspect to existence. But you're going much further than that.
2) Exactly. And I don't think the Maharal is learning this literally either (maybe the part about the land stretching is literal according to him. But he would agree that ששים ריבוא times ששים ריבוא need not be literal). But what do you think the Rambam would say about this? Do you *seriously* think he would just nod his head and say, of course there were 360 billion Jews in EY and the land miraculously expanded to accomodate them? No, of course not. The text does not by any means force us to say that whatsoever. And of course you know this is incorrect for many reasons, the least of which is that the Gemara estimates the number of Korban Pesachs as about 1.2 million (which itself might very well be an exxageration. Either way, it flatly contradicts the 360 billion population figure. Nu nu, a hundred billion here, a hundred billion there, we should get DOGE involved!....).
Because ששים ריבוא cities with ששים ריבוא people doesn't sound literal, but typological. I think most people with experience learning aggadah and midrashim would agree that it sounds like this. I don't see any reason to maximize the number of miracles. We can also say that Eretz Yisrael is on a space station orbiting Jupiter. But there's no reason to say that.
I agree that ששם ריבוא doesn't sound literal. Maybe we can come to a compromise. Not literally 360 billion Jews, but still not a number that the natural size of EY could contain?
Yes, this is probably what the Maharal believed. If you take the 1.2 million Pesachim literally, that's at least 12 million adults, which is very questionable if על פי דרך הטבע, the land could accommodate in those times (everybody relied on local agriculture, there were no tall apartment buildings etc). But he doesn't mean open up a bloody magic portal to another dimension, like Narnia! I doubt you even mean that. But when you talk in those terms, I don't think it seems like serious Torah or a serious attempt to explain things. However, maybe you're jsut having a little fun and I'm being overly pedantic.
Because Rav Meiselman explained in TCS that the Rambam has a shitta that after the creation of the world was complete, the metaphysical realm does not interface directly with our physical realm at all. Our neshamos can enter the metaphysical realm, but not with out bodies.
This is why the Rambam held the third Beis Hamikdash needs to built by human beings and argues on the Rishonim who say it will come down already build straight from shomayim. Acc. to the Rambam, nothing cam come from the metaphysical realm straight into our physical reality.
Right. But I didn't put together the Rambam's carve out exception for Yerushalayim that should allow a Beis Hamikdash to come down from Shomayim. Good point.
Just saying: You are dead wrong here. The heretic is not saying it is hyperbolic, he is saying it's a lie!
Chazal are mocking the heretic for taking it literally (and you are being as dumb as the heretic).
Good point. But the Steinsaltz translation used by Safaria agreed with me.
I find these types of theories to be harmful. Once you take Torah out of the realm of reality, don't be surprised if people who live in reality are not interested in it. I actually find this uncharacteristic of you, because I see you as an otherwise well-grounded, practical person.
"The problem is real because we can’t simply say this gemara is being hyperbolic. This is exactly what the heretic is claiming, and the chachomim insist that the numbers are literally true!"
Chas v'shalom. Not at all. With all due respect, this is exactly what the Rambam means when he refers to when he says
הראשונה והוא רוב מה שראיתי, ואשר ראיתי חיבוריו ומה ששמעתי עליו -
הם מאמינים אותם על פשטם, ואין סוברין בהם פירוש נסתר בשום פנים. והנמנעות כולם הם אצלם מחויבות המציאות.
ואמנם עושים כן, לפי שלא הבינו החוכמה והם רחוקים מן התבונות, ואין בהם מן השלמות כדי שיתעוררו מאליהם, ולא מצאו מעורר שיעורר אותם. סוברין שלא כוונו החכמים ז"ל בכל דבריהם הישרים והמתוקנים, אלא מה שהבינו לפי דעתם מהם, ושהם על פשטם. ואע"פ שהנראה מקצת דבריהם יש בהם מן הדיבה והריחוק מן השכל, עד שאילו סופר על פשוטו לעמי הארץ - כל שכן לחכמים - היו תמהים בהתבוננתם בהם, והם אומרים היאך יתכן שיהיה בעולם אדם שיחשוב בזה או שיאמין שהיא אמונה נכונה, ק"ו שייטיב בעיניו.
וזו הכת עניי הדעת, יש להצטער עליהם לסכלותם, לפי שהם מכבדין ומנשאין החכמים כפי דעתם, והם משפילים אותם בתכלית השפלות, והם אינם מבינין זה. וחי השם יתברך כי הכת הזה מאבדים הדרת התורה ומאפילים זהרה, ומשימים תורת ה' בהיפך המכוון בה. לפי שהשם יתברך אמר בתורה התמימה "אשר ישמעון את כל החוקים האלה ואמרו רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה", והכת הזאת מספרים משפטי דברי החכמים ז"ל מה שכששומעים אותו שאר האומות, אומרים "רק עם סכל ונבל הגוי הקטן הזה".
ורוב מה שעושים זה הדרשנים שהם מפרשים ומודיעים להמון העם מה שאינם יודעים. ומי יתן אחר שלא ידעו ולא הבינו שיהיו שותקים. כמו שאמר "מי יתן החרש תחרישון ותהי להם לחכמה". או שיהיו אומרים אין אנו מבינים כוונת החכמים בזה המאמר ולא היאך יתפרש. אבל הם מחשבים שהם מבינים אותו ומשתדלים להודיעו לפרש לעם מה שהבינו הם עצמם, כפי דעתם החלושה, לא מה שאמרו חכמים, ודורשים בראשי העם דרשות ממסכת ברכות ופרק חלק וזולתם על פשטם מלה במלה.
1) Its one thing to criticize an approach that takes you out of reality as we know it just to answer a problem. It is ad hoc and forced and doesn't seem authentic. But I don't think the Maharal or the Akeidas Yitzchak can be accused of coming up with an ad hoc solution. I think they genuinely felt this approach to nature-breaking miracles is firmly grounded in the sources and in the very perplexing qualities of the miracles described in Tanach and Chazal. Its organic.
2) I had a feeling someone would cite the Rambam in Chelek to counter this approach.
All I can say is that the Maharal is ordinarily right there with the Rambam allegorizing most of the fantastical midrashim and aggados-Like Og's height and throwing the mountain on Klal Yisroel for instance.
But this one about EY expanding simply cannot be one of those. The text itself prevents us from doing it-- forcing the Maharal to resort to alternative realities.
1) I don't disagree with the organic aspect, but I highly, highly doubt the Maharal meant the sci-fi way you are presenting it here. Maybe you could say this is a modern twist on the Maharal.
In any case though, my issue wasn't with the ad hoc or forced aspect, I don't really have a problem with those when the situation calls for it. To the contrary, there is nothing really forcing us to make Torah otherworldly in the scif-fi way you are presenting it. Of course, it's totally conventional and intuitive to believe in an entire sprititual aspect to existence. But you're going much further than that.
2) Exactly. And I don't think the Maharal is learning this literally either (maybe the part about the land stretching is literal according to him. But he would agree that ששים ריבוא times ששים ריבוא need not be literal). But what do you think the Rambam would say about this? Do you *seriously* think he would just nod his head and say, of course there were 360 billion Jews in EY and the land miraculously expanded to accomodate them? No, of course not. The text does not by any means force us to say that whatsoever. And of course you know this is incorrect for many reasons, the least of which is that the Gemara estimates the number of Korban Pesachs as about 1.2 million (which itself might very well be an exxageration. Either way, it flatly contradicts the 360 billion population figure. Nu nu, a hundred billion here, a hundred billion there, we should get DOGE involved!....).
Because ששים ריבוא cities with ששים ריבוא people doesn't sound literal, but typological. I think most people with experience learning aggadah and midrashim would agree that it sounds like this. I don't see any reason to maximize the number of miracles. We can also say that Eretz Yisrael is on a space station orbiting Jupiter. But there's no reason to say that.
I agree that ששם ריבוא doesn't sound literal. Maybe we can come to a compromise. Not literally 360 billion Jews, but still not a number that the natural size of EY could contain?
Yes, this is probably what the Maharal believed. If you take the 1.2 million Pesachim literally, that's at least 12 million adults, which is very questionable if על פי דרך הטבע, the land could accommodate in those times (everybody relied on local agriculture, there were no tall apartment buildings etc). But he doesn't mean open up a bloody magic portal to another dimension, like Narnia! I doubt you even mean that. But when you talk in those terms, I don't think it seems like serious Torah or a serious attempt to explain things. However, maybe you're jsut having a little fun and I'm being overly pedantic.
Because Rav Meiselman explained in TCS that the Rambam has a shitta that after the creation of the world was complete, the metaphysical realm does not interface directly with our physical realm at all. Our neshamos can enter the metaphysical realm, but not with out bodies.
This is why the Rambam held the third Beis Hamikdash needs to built by human beings and argues on the Rishonim who say it will come down already build straight from shomayim. Acc. to the Rambam, nothing cam come from the metaphysical realm straight into our physical reality.
Right. But I didn't put together the Rambam's carve out exception for Yerushalayim that should allow a Beis Hamikdash to come down from Shomayim. Good point.